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Duine Mara (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 16,17,2,9,4,3,5,1,7,4,2,17,0,7,14,15,12,15
rnd two: 11,5,3,0,14,8,4,11,5,16,10,11,5,3,7,1,9,6
rnd three: 1,8,5,2,0,2,3,0,6,0,15,10,14,8,8,4,1,0
rnd four: 2,2,15,5,10,7,6,17,14,9,1,5,11,0,3,11,0,4

Innisbrook 2011 (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 12,0,3,7,9,0,6,13,5,11,14,0,0,2,12,1,0,1
rnd two: 1,3,8,0,6,2,5,12,2,2,9,6,2,3,2,14,7,2
rnd three: 10,11,5,5,1,6,0,6,12,5,0,3,1,0,13,11,4,3
rnd four: 0,10,0,3,8,5,4,5,1,0,6,7,5,1,4,7,14,11

The Brabazon @ the Belfry (All round were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 3,14,16,2,3,3,14,15,2,5,1,13,3,2,6,2,5,8
rnd two: 0,5,11,1,2,10,7,8,5,2,3,14,4,0,2,9,7,0
rnd three: 7,2,0,4,4,11,0,0,6,4,11,12,6,3,17,16,6,9
rnd four: 2,15,5,8,0,6,3,9,1,6,0,4,11,4,14,10,4,12

Merion East (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 5,2,0,4,8,2,7,1,4,0,12,9,12,3,16,12,14,5
rnd two: 1,0,2,0,6,0,10,2,3,1,0,10,0,1,17,0,8,3
rnd three: 8,10,5,13,17,12,2,0,12,3,17,0,5,10,4,8,4,9
rnd four: 6,5,17,5,15,1,5,5,13,4,8,3,4,4,0,1,0,8

Carton House @ The O'meara Course (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 3,6,8,0,1,5,3,17,1,7,2,4,0,0,11,9,0,0
rnd two: 4,7,9,3,2,6,4,0,3,8,3,2,3,1,5,14,2,1
rnd three: 5,0,4,5,3,11,5,3,4,16,10,9,8,3,3,0,5,7
rnd four: 10,2,3,6,0,10,9,15,5,9,4,11,10,6,0,5,17,10

Saigon Golf & Country Club (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 1,0,8,13,12,0,2,17,4,7,14,8,0,9,12,8,0,0
rnd two: 4,3,11,0,17,13,5,0,5,5,0,5,4,7,0,0,5,4
rnd three: 5,6,5,6,1,4,6,5,10,12,12,4,14,0,7,3,13,1
rnd four: 7,2,12,3,6,17,8,15,17,10,2,13,1,14,9,14,7,8

Muirfield Village G.C. 2011 (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 0,6,3,8,6,4,8,5,3,16,8,9,15,1,7,7,11,0
rnd two: 5,3,9,7,10,2,2,1,5,2,0,2,9,0,4,5,0,3
rnd three: 9,1,0,3,0,3,4,2,0,5,12,17,4,5,8,8,4,1
rnd four: 2,0,1,6,7,14,11,7,2,3,4,7,8,7,9,1,10,7

Riviera 2006 (All rounds were set at Mc/Mc)
rnd one: 4,12,1,13,8,9,1,13,0,0,11,0,0,1,9,1,5,9
rnd two: 5,13,11,17,9,8,11,1,7,12,12,12,8,0,14,0,16,13
rnd three: 0,0,6,4,13,5,4,8,11,11,0,9,1,12,1,4,0,11
rnd four: 16,9,16,8,10,4,0,11,5,1,8,4,13,5,11,11,6,0

Ackerton Cross G.C.
rnd one (Fc/Mc) 2,11,2,10,7,2,6,7,0,9, 6,7,9,0,8,8,10,4
rnd two (Mc/Mc) 5,6,8,9,11,6,10,1,6,0,10,0,5,9,9,6,8,3
rnd three (Mc/Mc) 8,0,0,0,3,4,11,8,2,5,0,8,3,4,2,1,4,8
rnd four (Mc/Sc) 11,1,7,7,0,10,7,2,6,1,3,3,0,7,0,7,1,7

Grey Silo (my speeds were probably slower than needed. I suspect you could go up to Mc/Fc)
rnd one (Sc/Mc) 16,4,6,1,0,1,5,8,3,0,1,1,11,5,5,0,3,1
rnd two (Mc/Mc) 2,11,3,4,3,5,0,12,4,1,10,4,2,0,2,5,9,4
rnd three (Mc/Sc) 1,2,0,0,6,0,6,0,8,11,0,16,8,2,11,3,10,7
rnd four (Sc/Mc) 13,5,4,3,2,3,3,15,0,3,2,2,3,6,10,13,13,0

Zachary O 2012
rnd one (Mc/Mc) 0,5,9,7,7,0,11,4,0,2,4,10,0,7,7,6,0,4
rnd two (Mc/Fc) 1,1,5,10,1,5,5,7,7,4,7,5,5,4,5,0,4,2
rnd three (Mc/Mc) 4,0,3,0,5,1,3,2,3,0,1,1,9,1,8,1,6,1
rnd four (Fc/Mc) 5,4,0,6,0,2,4,0,5,7,0,3,2,0,0,4,5,0

Arbor's Way:
No Wind Fc/Mc 4,7,4,5,4,4,2,7,13,1,5,0,8,0,2,0,10,7
No Wind Mc/Mc 0,3,8,0,5,0,6,2,0,10,0,4,2,9,0,6,8,0
Breezy Mc/Sc 6,15,0,11,1,10,8,11,10,3,11,14,3,12,6,4,9,3
Breezy Sc/Sc 1,4,1,10,2,7,5,13,5,8,3,5,0,5,5,7,5,2

Ava's Field:
No Wind Mc/Mc 0,4,9,5,2,14,8,5,0,7,16,2,0,8,5,3,14,2
Breezy Fc/Mc 1,0,17,6,0,3,17,6,15,0,10,11,11,10,9,12,8,14
No Wind Mc/Sc 11,10,17,9,1,0,7,15,9,15,2,0,5,0,1,14,9,0
Breezy Sc/Sc 15,7,0,14,15,1,0,0,8,9,7,7,15,14,11,0,0,15

De Zalze Estate:
Breezy Mc/Mc 2,0,3,2,0,3,3,1,1,2,1,2,2,2,0,2,2,3
No Wind Sc/Mc 0,3,1,3,2,2,0,3,3,3,2,0,0,0,1,0,0,0
No Wind Sc/Mc 3,2,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,3,1,2,1,3,2
No Wind Sc/Sc 1,1,2,1,3,1,2,2,2,0,3,3,3,1,3,3,3,1,2

Esker Fields 2009:
Breezy Mc/Mc 0,4,7,14,5,4,0,2,3,4,4,6,3,5,1,17,9,4
Breezy Sc/Mc 17,9,3,2,9,5,11,0,2,0,0,7,10,4,2,0,8,10
No Wind Sc/Sc 4,8,4,6,4,0,2,4,0,11,5,8,0,2,5,5,7,2
Breezy Mc/Sc 8,2,5,7,2,10,5,5,15,1,3,3,5,1,4,3,6,13

Kapalua Plantation 2009 (These were all set at Mc/Mc, but should handle faster conditions.)
Rnd One: 13,2,0,2,5,9,1,4,6,9,2,17,0,0,0,4,7,10
Rnd Two: 17,6,5,7,10,2,7,2,2,0,8,7,4,2,12,5,11,4
Rnd Three: 11,8,10,12,1,3,9,17,3,1,4,13,5,8,6,0,13,5
Rnd Four: 3,10,12,3,6,0,5,0,1,6,10,15,6,4,2,3,1,0

Pinehurst #2 HD (These were all set at Mc/Mc, but should handle Fc)
Rnd One: 7,5,6,0,2,6,0,2,0,0,4,11,2,0,10,2,7,7
Rnd Two: 2,7,8,8,5,2,2,0,1,3,0,0,4,4,1,11,5,5
Rnd Three: 1,6,3,1,0,0,1,5,4,4,6,5,0,1,0,0,4,0
Rnd Four: 0,1,11,2,10,1,4,3,7,5,2,9,11,3,2,1,9,1

Carton House the Montgomerie Course
Rnd oNE: (Breezy Fc/Fc) 1,3,1,3,5,0,1,5,1,4,2,10,8,0,2,0,1,6
Rnd Two: (No Wind Mc/Fc) 4,4,9,2,9,3,5,11,5,2,6,8,6,1,0,3,9,0
Rnd Three: (Breezy Mc/Mc) 0,1,10,5,3,1,14,8,2,0,4,4,10,14,3,4,10,4
Rnd Four: (Breezy Fc/Sc) 2,2,11,4,9,2,8,0,11,3,1,1,9,17,1,7,11,5

Classic Club (These were all set at Mc/Mc)
Rnd One: 5,1,0,16,9,4,4,17,9,2,0,3,2,2,5,4,0,4
Rnd Two: 14,0,13,2,3,11,12,16,2,1,14,0,0,9,4,14,10,2
Rnd Three: 0,5,1,0,0,5,1,10,17,15,8,14,4,14,0,15,14,1
Rnd Four: 16,17,7,6,11,0,0,15,10,3,16,6,10,0,17,1,3,3

no disrespect, but a negative side effect of playing so much, is playing tournaments on a finite set of pin positions begins to seem awfully redundant. i made the suggestion many moons ago, but how about simply staying with the random pins, but eliminating certain particularly bad pins? (8

Good idea T, if anyone has the time and patience to do it, but every random pin still has to be checked to make sure it is fair so it's just like starting again from scratch really in my opinion.

well, what i was thinking, if we simply submitted known bad pins to mark, he could randomize the pins, then just change the known bad ones, should they show up. i think had we taken that approach back when it was suggested, rather than spending tons of unnecessary time picking one good setup, we'd have had it kicked by now.

with all due respect to everyone that has taken the time to submit pins, i'd really rather start the process again, than continuing to play the same pins week after week.

It seems to me, and perhaps only me, that the only fail-safe way to eliminate a bad pin is to remove that hole location from the course file. That requires the designer. By the same token, a bad pin at one speed might not be bad at another speed. Sarge has given good info, but his pins might not be so good if someone else uses his pins, but not his conditions.

This thread and the info contained in it, in my opinion, is good stuff IF it is followed to a t(not to be confused with the T).

terrell wrote:than continuing to play the same pins week after week.

I'm assuming that this is an over-generalization considering that we don't play the same course week after week?

I agree, mostly, that pins need to changed up occasionally. But getting a majority to agree on what constitutes a "bad pin" might be a challenge. I already know that my criteria for a bad pin varies from yours. So how do we determine the criteria used? And once that criteria is determined, how is the bad pin info going to be presented for all to see?

Just throwing some thoughts out there.
Dave

This was supposed to be a "Sticky" where pins could be stored, but since everybody wants to fill the page with a debate, I'll say this, (1) Dave is correct, a bad pin at challenge is not a bad pin at 1.05. (2) If I post my pins for a course along with course conditions, Colin, Gibby, Dave or whoever else does the same, we will start to get a long list of different options for that individual course. I don't know about anybody else, but I start doing my setups at Fc/Fc and work downward till I find a playable setup. (3) As to repetition, again, Dave is correct. We have a big list of available courses (not all of which work for challenge) to amass a pin/course condition directory.

Then we have which pin was used? Since we don't see the data base.
Can see the pm's now "Mark, event such & such 1st round hole #4 bad pin, I tested out these under same conditions(pin 3,7,15) all work better"
Then someone else sends about same event/same round but hole #5 bad.
Who do you believe?
Know what your saying T, same pins at same course, but how often do we play the same course per year?


Edit: Correct Sarge!!!!

GoBucks wrote:I'm assuming that this is an over-generalization...

lol...sorta. even though there are 25,352 different courses used in the rotation, it almost SEEMS as though we're playing the same courses with the same pins. underscore 'exacerbated' by using the same pins (my trips to the green will always vary from everyone else's).

my criteria for what constitutes a 'bad pin', is the ball must be able to stop somewhere within a 3 foot circle around the cup, without trickling more than 10 feet away. that might be on a precipice, but if the ball will stop somewhere on this side of the precipice, it's ok by me.

sidenote: apologies for mucking up mark's pin position thread with debate, but i think this is important.

gibby wrote:Know what your saying T...

though i don't believe my way is as impractical as we think, i give up. since gib', sarge, colin, steve#2, etc, do by far the majority of customized pin setups (at least for the tournaments i play), i'll certainly abide by the way they wanna handle this.

carry on. (8

terrell wrote:though i don't believe my way is as impractical as we think

I hope you don't think that I was implying your suggestions were impractical, although after re-reading my comments I can see that. It wasn't my intent. I think it's a good idea, but we need ideas as to how to get there.

i give up.

Didn't think those three words were in your vocabulary.

lol. it's not you, dave. but in conversing with sarge and gib', and they set up most of the tournaments i play, i'll respect the approach they wanna take.

sarge and gib' i consider friends. if their names were mick and eddie, i would probably be much more resolute. if'n ya know what i mean. (8