flights, theory and tour practice

[Larry_Warrilow]

flighted tour events are the only realistic opportunity that 98% of we non-stud middle ranker average players will ever have to win a tour event.

i've been playing the tour since the fall of '98 and all seven of my tour victories have been in flighted events. four B flight pro click wins late on the old access tour in the fall of 2000, and three 2k3 champ C flight click wins in dec '02 and jan & feb '03. i was promoted to the bottom of champ B flight shortly thereafter, where i somehow [censored] on for many seasons and where i had no chance to win, but i liked the idea that i was a B flight player even if i was only a hanger-on.

many players seem to think that they only have to show up in a flighted event and shoot a little better than their scoring average and then they will be in contention. that conception is a pipe dream because history shows that whatever flight is in question, that you have to shoot way over your head for any given week in a full field flighted event to contend. it only happens a few times a year for most of us, but i among others, can testify that it's possible.

the tour changed its philosophy of flight player distribution after the first season of 2k3. instead of flights with equal numbers of players, the population was distributed in flights in a rough approximation of the normal statistical distribution. what this accomplished is that no matter how many players were in any given flight (and 40% of all pro click players were in E and F flights alone), the difference in scoring average between the best player of each flight and the worst player was pretty much the same in all but the most extreme ability flights.

on the old tour with 667 players at pro click the flights were apportioned thusly: A 5%[33 players], B 5% [33], C 10% [66], D 10% [66], E 20% [133], F 20% [135], G 10% [66], H 10% [67], I 5% [33], J 5% [31].

what this meant in practical terms was that the players in each flight were packed together in equal statistical scoring measure whatever the number of players in each particular flight: that it would be as easy or difficult to win any flight event from top to bottom because the range of scoring averages in each flight were approximately the same: at pro click in '06, about 1.8 strokes.

if you improved your scoring average by 1.9 strokes you could theoretically move from the top of F flight to the bottom of D flight. and that could actually be accomplished by steady incremental good play over a season.

however, to actually win a particular flighted event, any player who has actually done it will testify that they played far beyond their average weekly scoring result. often in the past the winning score for a middle flight would be close to a very high flight winning score. no flight victories are achieved by just showing up: you have to go very low.

that being said, as of now, the ranked tour population is not large enough to support credible flight competition except at pro click, and then just barely.

the historical consensus was that a flight event had to have about 40 entries to be a real competition. we didn't get those numbers even on the old site at champ very often in any flight, but the pro click guys in the four big middle flights usually had at least 60 entries every week.

so what we need is some patience as the player population gradually builds. lw

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[Justin_I]

The other great "leveler" was handicap events, and as the whole field is in theory eligible you got a high number of players. Same as the flights though, you had to play well above yourself to be in contention.

Of course the big argument here was always about players padding their handicaps and not playing certain tournaments, (for example playing Frankfuter last week would have sent your handicap up 1 or 2 shots, as opposed to those who stayed away) and taking advantage, but if you applied a difficulty measure to each course you could settle that issue too. Is there a plan here for Handicaps again?

Handicaps & Fights are my favorites because you start off knowing you are a chance, then PLSA due to the variation in courses, then Classic and RAW ( hate the no caddy, driving the green from 120m out is no fun). The new stableford format I would equate with PLSA as it will put me on a course I probably have not played before.

Larry, thanks for the explanation on flights... I was a bit down about being in flight F, but at least 20% of the rest are there with me!

[Larry_Warrilow]

J, the former tour lstr handicap events, even when they were working properly, still had inherent initial first event handicap assignment problems that had nothing to do with cheating even after the tour had effectively dealt with most of the obvious abuses. unfortunately, the computer could never catch up in time in handicap assessment to a highly skilled first time player in his very first and second rounds, and by that time he had a big enough lead to beat even the luckiest long time high handicapper, even though everyone was playing straight-up.

there was also an easily seen champ (and elite) level handicap scam on the old tour that the admin for some reason didn't put the hammer on even when it was pointed out.

so it's fair to say, that whatever strictures that the old tour had put in place to give all players an equal shot in the handicap events, the lstrs remained an unpredictably unfair crap shoot, and favored very good players (who were not cheating) the first week they showed up in the event, even if never afterward. the old lstr handicap events needed just a few more tweaks to make them a possible avenue for a victory by an average player.

as i have remarked previously, flight events will remain the main source of rare victories for us rank and file guys. lw

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[Dr_Dave]

Never did get much out of flights, I felt that getting hammered by the big guns forced me to improve my game.

Handicap events, lets not go there, that might be what pushes Mark over the edge!!

[Justin_I]

Dr, agreed lets not push Mark over the edge, I feel like making a donation just for mentioning handicaps!

LW, never understood the mental processes of those that tried to scam the system... shame that we all miss out because a few ruin it for all, but that as they say is life.

[Dr_Dave]

Toooo funny Justin!! Poor Mark would start pullin' his hair out if he had to deal with this crew regarding handicapping. He's got a nice mix of stuff going that should keep things very interesting. I've already put him in my will

[Larry_Warrilow]

it would take only a couple more (fairly major) tweaks to make the lstr (handicap) events a credible event at all difficulty levels. lw

[Cheezer]

many players seem to think that they only have to show up in a flighted event and shoot a little better than their scoring average and then they will be in contention. that conception is a pipe dream because history shows that whatever flight is in question, that you have to shoot way over your head for any given week in a full field flighted event to contend.

In real life golf if you play in flighted tournaments and assuming every player's handicap was accurate the rule of thumb is if a player played to his handicap or slightly better he/she had a very good chance of winning their flight. So help me out here and explain in Links golf you have to shoot way over your handicap to win a flight tourney which by the way is accurate.

[UncleDunc]

Cheeser,

Because as in real life, the larger the group, the larger the chance is that someone will exceed their ability. Simple laws of probability.

Unca

[DennisHarris]

Gary, The difference between real golf and virtual golf is the virtual part.

If you suspect real golf flighted tournaments are so accurate you seem to forget the guys and gals who fail to report every score they shoot. Some player will conveniently fail to submit REALLY GOOD OR REALLY BAD scores they have shot. They do not want to hurt there handicaps. Which it doesn't anyway. You get a player who has a bad couple of weeks or 4 or five bad rounds and the wheels start turning. I've turned in a buddy who did just that and no big deal was made of it by management. Oh! He forgot! LMAO! Sure he did. I submitted mine with him standing next to me. So is that real life cheating the system. In my eyes it is. Prove to me every score is submitted by every player for Handicap purposes in real life. It flat does not happen in all cases and you know it. Real golf has its own problems too. Its not perfect either.

At least here at LSPN every completed round is recored. Every system has players who fudge or try to cheat the system, you know a bit hear or a bit there. No big deal. I see no difference with that think in the real world or here in the virual world. Not everybody is doing it but surely some are, or are trying to.

LSPN Flight tournaments are much more fair than a few players are willing to admit. Are Flights perfect ...No ... but they're as good as can be expected.

[Cheezer]

Unfortunately Dennis there are golfers in real life that will stoop to the actions you purported in your reply. The country club I am a member at has taken care of that situation when it arises. The starter provides the pro shop with the daily tee times of all players and if a card with each player's score is not submitted after their round the pro shop automatically enters a score card for them matching their handicap. In addition our pro shop has a system,which I believe most country club's use, in which there is a maximum amount of strokes for each hole that can be submitted for handicapping purposes. For instance if a player is between a 0 handicap and a 5 handicap the most strokes that is used for handicapping purposes for each hole is a bogey. For handicaps above that it is graduated higher for each hole as a for instance say 6 handicap to 11 handicap the most that can be submitted for each hole is a double bogey and so on and so forth for higher yet handicap players.

In summary Dennis, the above system has been very accurate and I stand behind my suggestion that, at least at my club, a player who scores his handicap over a four round flighted tourney has a very good chance of winning a tourney. I suggest maybe some of the precautions I have stated in the above paragraph should be instituted in the LSPN flights to avoid having to shoot lights out to even have a chance of winning their flight.

Oh yes and maybe the most important fact concerning handicapping in real life is only a player's best 10 scores out of their last twenty rounds are used for handicapping and it is upgraded every two weeks. IN LSPN all scores from week one until the end of the season is used for ranking purposes.

[Dr_Dave]

I'm not advocating a handicap system believe me, but real golf flighted tournaments work because of the proven players handicapping system that has been around for years.

[DennisHarris]

Gary, Dave

A handicap system in real life golf will always work better than in the ciber golf world, no matter what. Its simply harder to shoot par or below in the real game. Flight tournaments IRL are also based on the players handicap. The higher the handicap the lower the flight assignment.

In the cyber world of links a flight assignment is based only on your scoring average over the Season. A player in the cyber game can improve or get hot and easily shoot as many as 10 12 14 strokes better than there current scoring average, over 4 rounds. In the real world that simply would not happen. If it did occur in the real world questions would also be ask.

That said improvements can be made to the LSPN flight tournaments.

Your idea, that once a player has recorded 20 or more rounds in a season to only use there latest 20 for flight assignments is a good one. I'm sure such a change would be met with screaming of sand bagging etc. But such a change would make a more accurate and current flight assignment. Though I think we all would all be about where we currently are, and could be micro managing a problem that might only be a preceived problem, rather than a real one.

One thing that could and should be done IMO is make an instant battle field promotion, up one flight to any player that wins more than one flight tournament.

All said and done I still think the current flight assignments system is pretty darn good.

[gibby]

I may be off my rocker with this one but how about this,
Only 1 rd per day for flights or handicap events, let the scoring sytem update overnight to adjust for good or bad scores.
This is just a testing time anyway, give it a try and see how it pans out, it can always be dumped later.

[AZWilly]

[quote="DennisHarris"]Gary, Dave

One thing that could and should be done IMO is make an instant battle field promotion, up one flight to any player that wins more than one flight tournament.

quote]

I would concur