Harbortown (APCD)

[terrell]

the debate over copying courses has been the greatest thing that disappoints me about some people here. i don't care about requalifying, or chipping on greens, or even having multiple logins, but illegally copying software, or music, hurts everyone. prices are inflated for everyone because you're a thief. all the other stuff i mentioned, you're only hurting yourself.

crissy's correct, i've seen courses being passed freely here, even back when i was paying $20 for them. but those of you who refuse to steal courses, you have my greatest admiration. you're far better individuals than some.

[Crissy]

I see that a few of the very best P2P designers have stopped designing courses all together. And I would think the main reason for this is lack of sales. And the lack of sales is do to the fact that most of the copy-s of there courses, were obtained in a less then legal fashion shall we say.

Altogether I have eight P2P courses all of them I purchased along time ago. They just don’t interest me all that much anymore so I just don’t buy them now days is all. But there are many people that are interested in them, but because many people do not pay for them I would think the day of P2P courses are numbered. ( whats the use in making something you cant sell )

Thats just my views on the direction P2P courses are or will be taking in the near future.

Crissy

[terrell]

i'm really hoping mark will start allowing p2p courses here. hopefully that would reinvigorate the apcd designers again. crissy's right (again), after you've put all the blood, sweat, and tears into designing a coupla courses, only to see them swapped like baseball cards, and then they're never used in a tour, it's gotta be sorta frustrating.

and to those who don't think p2p's should be used, because heaven forbid you might have to give up a six pack for it (ok, bad analogy, i'd rethink that one myself), it's not the end of the world if you don't have every course, and you can't play in every tournament. life will go on.

[GaryTaylor]

( whats the use in making something you cant sell )

Crissy

Pride? Self Satisfaction? Knowing that you are continuing to contribute to the Links Community?

My last course I made when the seam blending came out (almost 4 years now) was a course called Black Lake, a course here in Michigan owned by the UAW. It turned out rather nice if I do say so myself.

Well, anyway I was proud of the finished product. Then I started recieving lots of emails from people I never heard of telling me thanks for the course and how much they enjoyed it. To me this is worth more then the money I could have made off the OVER 10,000 downloads the course got. The money would have come and gone. But my feelings that I got from all the emails and the pride of making the course will stay with me forever.

Like I said, the course was made almost 4 years ago and just 2-3 weeks ago I got another email from a person that had just downloaded and played the course. WOW!! 4 years later and still getting appreciation on my course. To me this makes all the hours and hard work it took me to make my 3 courses worth every second spent on them without having to charge one red cent for them.

Just thought I would answer your question from this designors perspective

[terrell]

black lake seemed awfully familiar, and sure enough, i do have it. it's been awhile since i've played it, so i decided to try a few holes. next thing i know, i'm finishing 18. gary is 100 percent correct, black lake is a terrific track. he did a fantastic job on it.

one thing i wanna ask. if black lake, and other outstanding tracks like it, had been used on the linkstour, don't you think there would be more interest in designing, or continuing to design? self-satisfaction can carry you so far, but sooner or later, ya gotta have some appreciation.

[Crissy]

( whats the use in making something you cant sell )

Crissy

Pride? Self Satisfaction? Knowing that you are continuing to contribute to the Links Community?

My last course I made when the seam blending came out (almost 4 years now) was a course called Black Lake, a course here in Michigan owned by the UAW. It turned out rather nice if I do say so myself.

Well, anyway I was proud of the finished product. Then I started recieving lots of emails from people I never heard of telling me thanks for the course and how much they enjoyed it. To me this is worth more then the money I could have made off the OVER 10,000 downloads the course got. The money would have come and gone. But my feelings that I got from all the emails and the pride of making the course will stay with me forever.

Like I said, the course was made almost 4 years ago and just 2-3 weeks ago I got another email from a person that had just downloaded and played the course. WOW!! 4 years later and still getting appreciation on my course. To me this makes all the hours and hard work it took me to make my 3 courses worth every second spent on them without having to charge one red cent for them.

Just thought I would answer your question from this designors perspective

Oh see there you go, I learned something new today. I have played your courses there very nice. ( Black Lake G.C., Ice Castle II G. & C., Whispering Willows ) I just didn’t think it was you is all.

I use to stop by at the old Golfcom and read the posts there also, I think that was you over there to ? And didn’t you get a kind of an unfair review on your first course you released at least I thought so, that was along time ago. I get around you know. lol

Anyway its nice to have you over here, and I look forward to any new courses you may happen to release.

And my only real point of my post was. If you are selling P2P courses ( I don't think you are ) and most people are just stealing them then whats the point of making any more. As the chances of that person making any money is just about nil.

Crissy

[DJSpeedy]

butillegally copying software, or music, hurts everyone. prices are inflated for everyone because you're a thief.

So explain why, before the advent of the 'Net as we know it, music CD's were so overpriced to begin with? Surely wasn't because of piracy but because of GREED by the music labels because they know that we are suckers for new technology (as CD's were in the mid-80's) and we'd (happily) pay whatever inflated price they put on it.

Personally, I feel that $13.99 (and in come cases $19.99) is way too much for a CD, and $5.99 is where prices SHOULD be - but after 20 some odd years or so, isn't the case.

IMNSHO, "lost" music sales over the years can be attributed to high prices and the currentl generation of peeps that refuse to pay it.

Crissy is right about one thing. People are resourceful and FIND ways to get courses despite what "control" others try to put on it.

[terrell]

dj, i'm sure i've read stupider arguments somewhere, but i can't think of one at the moment.

[Larry_Warrilow]

as a professional who has been working in the recording industry for 30+ years, i would be one of the last persons to be defending record company pricing policies. those of us with any brains knew long ago that a legal single song title option (that means for a small reasonable fee) download access for consumers was way overdue. it took massive intellectual property theft by consumers to finally force the mega-record companies to start to make this a reality, because it's the only way corporate music production and promotion could survive.

most recording artists are lucky to receive 3% of their overall record sales unless they are a leadpipe superstar of many years. the record company gets most of the rest--they ultimately pay for the studio production, broadcast promotion, and all the other pr stuff. live concert revenue is where the bucks are for most musicians.

piracy (in all its many forms) was responsible for a 25% drop in record company revenue last year, a fact that would have killed off a lot of industries. it seriously dented my own royalty income last year, and i'm a very small guy compared to the big names.

this is a fact: piracy kills off the revenue it takes to develop and produce new artists, and has killed off important parts of the professional music production infrastructure.

how this pertains to links is this: we all have been the unbelievably lucky beneficiaries of an enormous amount of entertaining and superbly executed course files that have been offered gratis, but the guys who have been pushing the boundaries of the art (and sharing their knowledge with anyone who asks) are the ones asking a few bucks for their titles. the surest way to demoralize and lose this important links creative source is to systematically steal their product.

while it's easy to cynically suggest that this is going to happen no matter what, it surely doesn't change the fact that these small premeditated individual acts of theft will contribute one by one, over time, to the destruction of the single most important creative element we have in links. lw

___________________________

[GaryTaylor]

black lake seemed awfully familiar, and sure enough, i do have it. it's been awhile since i've played it, so i decided to try a few holes. next thing i know, i'm finishing 18. gary is 100 percent correct, black lake is a terrific track. he did a fantastic job on it.

one thing i wanna ask. if black lake, and other outstanding tracks like it, had been used on the linkstour, don't you think there would be more interest in designing, or continuing to design? self-satisfaction can carry you so far, but sooner or later, ya gotta have some appreciation.

Thanks for the kind words T. I also think you are spot on about the apcd courses being played in tours regardless if they are pay or non pay courses. A designor sure doesn't want to make a course if it is not going to be played on tours. And when the course is played on a tour, especially as big as this tour is, wll it's hard to explain the great feeling you get to see your course being played.

(small edit) *I* think the more your courses are played, the better the designor feels, which gives him added incentive to create more courses.

[GaryTaylor]

Oh see there you go, I learned something new today. I have played your courses there very nice. ( Black Lake G.C., Ice Castle II G. & C., Whispering Willows ) I just didn’t think it was you is all.

I use to stop by at the old Golfcom and read the posts there also, I think that was you over there to ?

Hmmm... Not sure if I want to incriminate myself on that one. I remember at times there were some pretty heated discussions over there. bahahahahahaha!!!!!

Thanks for the kind words on my courses Crissy.

And didn’t you get a kind of an unfair review on your first course you released at least I thought so, that was along time ago. I get around you know. lol

Like you said "Ice Castle II" was my 1st course. I was raw at the APCD and it did take me a long time to complete so I took some of the reviews very hard. But looking back now I can see how right they were. They never said it was a terrible course, they gave me ideas on how to make it a better course. IanD (a good friend at Links Corner) went over the course with a microscope, bahahahaha!!!!
But I did know he was just being honest and trying to help ALL designors to make better courses by showing the flaws in the courses being released.

Yea, it hurt. But the positives out weighed the hurt. At least I think you can see a big improvement on my 2nd course "Whispering Willows" and a bigger improvement with "Black Lake" with the seam blending method.

Anyway its nice to have you over here, and I look forward to any new courses you may happen to release.

Thanks for the warm welcome Crissy. I really would like to make another course, was hoping to upgrade the computer first as that APCD is such a resource hog. Then I would need to find the 6 months needed for *me* to complete a course.....bahahahahaha!!!!

And my only real point of my post was. If you are selling P2P courses ( I don't think you are ) and most people are just stealing them then whats the point of making any more. As the chances of that person making any money is just about nil.
Crissy

Let me start by saying my response to you before wasn't meant to jump on you in anyway. Let me start over. I didn't mean to jump on your post in anyway.
I just wanted to give my personal feelings on the subject.

I do agree with you if a designor is making the courses and feels money is needed for them to distribute the courses, then they have no reason to make the courses if they are just going to be passed around for free.

Can this be stopped? *I* don't think so. At best I think it can be curbed a bit.

[Crissy]

Can this be stopped? *I* don't think so. At best I think it can be curbed a bit.

Yes I think you are right its kind of a lost cause. But I think sometimes if things like this are brought to peoples attention it may help to at least slow things down a tad anyway, it cant hurt.

Also I remember when you released Ice Castle II G. & C. and Paul Willey made that recorded round for you. ( see I remember everything. lol ) I was wondering if you still had that. I use to but between reformats and this and that I don’t any more. I thought some people may get some fun playing against the best player that ever played on one of your courses.

Crissy

[Maximus]

piracy (in all its many forms) was responsible for a 25% drop in record company revenue last year

Larry,

I don't doubt you are correct about piracy. Another reason for the big drop might be the product itself. I listen to it here and there but today's music doesn't cut it for me personally which means I haven't bought a new CD in many years. I'm probably giving away my age when I say Led Zeppelin still rocks.

Max

[Bluenoser]

Led Zeppelin still rocks.

[GaryTaylor]

Can this be stopped? *I* don't think so. At best I think it can be curbed a bit.

Yes I think you are right its kind of a lost cause. But I think sometimes if things like this are brought to peoples attention it may help to at least slow things down a tad anyway, it cant hurt.

Also I remember when you released Ice Castle II G. & C. and Paul Willey made that recorded round for you. ( see I remember everything. lol ) I was wondering if you still had that. I use to but between reformats and this and that I don’t any more. I thought some people may get some fun playing against the best player that ever played on one of your courses.

Crissy

WoW!! You do remember everything!
That was back in Feburary of 2001!!!!!!! bahahahaha!!!!!!

Paul wanted quick access to the course so we could play it at Golfcom so he put it on his site for downloads. Then he decided to record a round of his at the course for players to play against it. I wish I would have saved that round to a floppy but not thinking I like you lost it during a formatt at one time or another.

One of the things Paul didn't like about the course was a hole where I had a steep incline and Paul said that there was no landing zone off the Tee. Of course he was right, no matter where you landed, you were on such a steep grade that no real golfer could stand upright to take his next shot. Such is the learning curve when building a course. lol

Perhaps we could talk Roy Higgi into doing a record round at Black Lake for us.
I would gladly put it up for downloads.......

Meanwhile I have an email into Paul to see if he still has that record round of his still sitting on his site somewhere